City of Dis

The Argument for San Fierro and Las Venturas

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I will break the argument into two different categories: logical suppositions and regional clues in the trailer.

Because the trailer focuses on Los Santos, the regional clues are sparse, so I'll start with those.

-It shows windmills that greatly resemble Altamont Pass, a notable place on the way from LA to northern California.

-The trailer highlights I-5, a famous highway that links Los Angeles to San Francisco.

-And, probably the most damning piece of evidence, Mount Chiliad is shown in the trailer, a location in San Fierro.

And now with the logical suppositions. These are tenuous conclusions that I've drawn which speak more about Rockstar's intentions regarding GTA V rather than any concrete allusions.

-They did it for San Andreas. They must know fans would be expecting it if they returned to Los Santos. I feel like even if the other cities don't appear in the game, they must've been up for discussion and debated.

-In the first San Andreas trailer, they only showed Los Santos, like this one.

-There are rumors that (more legit than the UK PS3 magazine rumors, in that they were posted on a rumor site and not as a random post on a forum) say the map is 2.5 times bigger than Red Dead Redemption's map, which is unbelievably freaking huge, certainly bigger than the original San Andreas map.

-There are jets, so obviously they're going to take you to far away places and other airports, which means other cities. Why not San Fierro and Las Venturas? Also, the jet coming from behind the Vinewood sign at the end of the trailer, wasn't the path from Las Venturas in San Andreas?

-Some license plates say "San Andreas" in the game (not really indicative; the state is San Andreas, so naturally the license plates would read that, but I don't think they would make it cryptically noticeable in the trailer if they didn't want to slyly allude to the first game).

-If they weren't going to include them, I think they would outright say it, instead of relaying ambiguities (see below)

-They've called it "the largest and most ambitious game Rockstar has yet created" which without San Fierro and Las Venturas, would feel like an overstatement.

Now I'm aware that Rockstar has said that the game "heads to the city of Los Santos and surrounding hills, countryside and beaches." In this statement, all they say is that GTA V heads to Los Santos; they do not say that it only heads to Los Santos. However, the next statement reads, "Grand Theft Auto V focuses on the pursuit of the almighty dollar in a re-imagined, present day Southern California." By saying that it focuses on Southern California, Rockstar seems to squash the implication that San Fierro or Las Venturas might return. But I still hold that this is too ambiguous. As I stated earlier, I truly believe that if San Fierro and Las Venturas don't appear in GTA V, Rockstar would've already explicitly said this. There is still speculation as to whether the other cities will appear, and I feel that Rockstar would quell the disappointment immediately, instead of allowing it to grow when they finally announce that the cities in fact will not be returning.

What do you guys think?

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It's nice to see a conversation of this that isn't "ZOMG Rock* cants have teh santolos and not the other citiez"

I also think they are being cheeky by not saying directly "this game will not feature San Fierro or Las Venturas".

Honestly I would love if rockstar just wanted to recreate that first feeling from the original San Andreas where everyone though Ah sweet its los angeles! Then the second trailer reveals the other two cities.

However I don't think that it will be the case. It can still be a huge game without these two cities. If anything we will hopefully get a San Diego and another semi large cities aswell as small towns.

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Excellent first post, and welcome! I'm still unsure about what to believe to be honest, don't really want to make assumptions (or indeed dismiss opinions of others) until there's more official information.

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-They've called it "the largest and most ambitious game Rockstar has yet created" which without San Fierro and Las Venturas, would feel like an overstatement.

This is the only thing that really convinces me we might still see the two other cities. If they stick with Los Santos and the surrounding countryside, then it clearly won't be their 'largest and most ambitious' game at all.

Also, referring to 'Southern California' doesn't necessarily exclude the two other cities. It might just mean they won't pay attention to anything north of San Francisco... which according to Google Maps, isn't much anyway. Las Vegas might be in Nevada, but it's close enough to Southern California to be part of the general area.

I'm sure they're still holding out on a few major details. Maybe they'll surprise us all, and include Hawaii?

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It's nice to see a conversation of this that isn't "ZOMG Rock* cants have teh santolos and not the other citiez"

I also think they are being cheeky by not saying directly "this game will not feature San Fierro or Las Venturas".

Honestly I would love if rockstar just wanted to recreate that first feeling from the original San Andreas where everyone though Ah sweet its los angeles! Then the second trailer reveals the other two cities.

However I don't think that it will be the case. It can still be a huge game without these two cities. If anything we will hopefully get a San Diego and another semi large cities aswell as small towns.

But why would they include San Diego over San Francisco? San Francisco is certainly a more interesting city.

-And, probably the most damning piece of evidence, Mount Chiliad is shown in the trailer, a location in San Fierro.

Not actually in San Fierro. San Fierro is the city north of it.

True. But why would they include Mount Chiliad but not San Fierro? Unless that's not actually Mount Chiliad in the trailer.

--

I think if we go with Occam's Razor, San Fierro and Las Venturas are not going to be in it. But I'm holding onto hope, and perhaps this is the only reason why I believe the cities will appear.

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It is possible that there will be two more cities, Rockstar isn't going to reveal the entire game in one trailer. Hell, they didn't even reveal the protagonist... So I'm betting in future trailers we will see a lot more! If the map is 2x RDR as I read somewhere, they could easily fit 3 large cities (The ones in San Andreas were tiny) and a lot of countryside as well.

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I can't remember too well but wasn't San Andreas revealed city by city? I remember only hearing proper details about Venturas not too long before the game came out.

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My main thought is that grand theft auto always had 3 cities and no not to would break their formula. plus if there is only one then the entire game map is available at the beginning of the game? How will they break it up if there is one city? I suppose they could have 3 islands and still call it all "los santos'

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If you look at the size of the actual Cities in San Andreas, and ignore the countryside, they are tiny, even Los Santos was tiny in terms of how many roads there are and the area it covers, if you compare it to Liberty City in GTA 4.

The reason San Andreas looked so big is cause it was just filled with countryside and deserts, the Cities were tiny.

If you look at the small towns, most of them only have 4 or 5 roads in total.

A lot of people are saying that making GTA 5 bigger than San Andreas, and only including one City and surrounding countryside is unrealistic and that there must be more cities in the game... but if they are making the cities the size of Liberty City in GTA 4, then I can see it being a lot bigger.

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People have a hard time accepting the fact that just because San Andreas was a certain way, Rockstar does NOT need to make GTA V the same way. It's like saying there HAD to be a dam in GTA IV just because III had one.

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People have a hard time accepting the fact that just because San Andreas was a certain way, Rockstar does NOT need to make GTA V the same way. It's like saying there HAD to be a dam in GTA IV just because III had one.

Was there a Dam in IV? I can't even remember

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There was no dam in GTA IV.

I can't make my mind up yet, and to be honest I have no reason to argue one way or another. I've swayed from one side of the fence to the other and back and i've come to the conclusion it's pointless speculating until R* finally decide to reveal their master plan to us. It's nice to talk about "what if this was in the game" and such, but I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.

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There was no dam in GTA IV.

I can't make my mind up yet, and to be honest I have no reason to argue one way or another. I've swayed from one side of the fence to the other and back and i've come to the conclusion it's pointless speculating until R* finally decide to reveal their master plan to us. It's nice to talk about "what if this was in the game" and such, but I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.

Totally agree (Y)

Would be nice to have in the game but either way we know the game will be awesome

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All we can hope for is a swift death few screenshots to be released in the coming months that might hint towards other cities, until then there is nothing in the trailer - as far as i'm concerned - that 100% proves there will be other cities.

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If you look at the size of the actual Cities in San Andreas, and ignore the countryside, they are tiny, even Los Santos was tiny in terms of how many roads there are and the area it covers, if you compare it to Liberty City in GTA 4.

The reason San Andreas looked so big is cause it was just filled with countryside and deserts, the Cities were tiny.

If you look at the small towns, most of them only have 4 or 5 roads in total.

A lot of people are saying that making GTA 5 bigger than San Andreas, and only including one City and surrounding countryside is unrealistic and that there must be more cities in the game... but if they are making the cities the size of Liberty City in GTA 4, then I can see it being a lot bigger.

True, but obviously Rockstar aren't gonna keep Los Santos and the other cities that size... Just look at the transformation of LC from III > IV. HUGE amount of change. That's what I'm expecting in V as well, I am posetive they won't keep those tiny-ass cities with all this new technology.

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Yah I wont be upset if it is the one city. I just kinda think as of now they are holding out on info, And if not, whatever. A large contryside is gonna be in there for sure which is sick cause I loved the country-side in gta sa.

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If you look at the size of the actual Cities in San Andreas, and ignore the countryside, they are tiny, even Los Santos was tiny in terms of how many roads there are and the area it covers, if you compare it to Liberty City in GTA 4.

The reason San Andreas looked so big is cause it was just filled with countryside and deserts, the Cities were tiny.

If you look at the small towns, most of them only have 4 or 5 roads in total.

A lot of people are saying that making GTA 5 bigger than San Andreas, and only including one City and surrounding countryside is unrealistic and that there must be more cities in the game... but if they are making the cities the size of Liberty City in GTA 4, then I can see it being a lot bigger.

True, but obviously Rockstar aren't gonna keep Los Santos and the other cities that size... Just look at the transformation of LC from III > IV. HUGE amount of change. That's what I'm expecting in V as well, I am posetive they won't keep those tiny-ass cities with all this new technology.

That was my point exactly, the new Los Santos (I'm hoping) will be nothing like the old one from San Andreas. and if the transformation of Liberty City is anything to go by then I don't see why the GTA 5 map can't bigger than the whole state of San Andreas map.

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If you look at the size of the actual Cities in San Andreas, and ignore the countryside, they are tiny, even Los Santos was tiny in terms of how many roads there are and the area it covers, if you compare it to Liberty City in GTA 4.

The reason San Andreas looked so big is cause it was just filled with countryside and deserts, the Cities were tiny.

If you look at the small towns, most of them only have 4 or 5 roads in total.

A lot of people are saying that making GTA 5 bigger than San Andreas, and only including one City and surrounding countryside is unrealistic and that there must be more cities in the game... but if they are making the cities the size of Liberty City in GTA 4, then I can see it being a lot bigger.

True, but obviously Rockstar aren't gonna keep Los Santos and the other cities that size... Just look at the transformation of LC from III > IV. HUGE amount of change. That's what I'm expecting in V as well, I am posetive they won't keep those tiny-ass cities with all this new technology.

That was my point exactly, the new Los Santos (I'm hoping) will be nothing like the old one from San Andreas. and if the transformation of Liberty City is anything to go by then I don't see why the GTA 5 map can't bigger than the whole state of San Andreas map.

Yeah, If it's only los Santos and the "surrounding countryside" I could see Los Santos being as big as 3/4 or even all of San Andreas. I read somewhere GTA V's map would be 2-2.5x as large as RDR - Which is HUGE. If that is the case, I would make a guess that the other cities are included. But if they're not, Los Santos might be massive.

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I've read a few different versions on the topic of Map Size, (Don't believe a word till R* confirm it) but I'm not to bothered about the size of it, and as most guys will say "size isn't everything", quality over quantity. :D

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Although I would really like to see SanFierro in glorious HD (not too fussed on Las Venturras) I'd settle for a much expanded take on L.A. With more of the areas they didn't include with SanAndreas. More Orange County, with Anaheim and a Rockstar take on theme parks such a Disneyland would be awesome. I'd love to run wild in a place like that, perhaps even do mission for some corrupt theme park owner, even buy one to run missions for Vice City style.

That would be a satisfying alternative to Gant Bridge rampages for me.

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Although I would really like to see SanFierro in glorious HD (not too fussed on Las Venturras) I'd settle for a much expanded take on L.A. With more of the areas they didn't include with SanAndreas. More Orange County, with Anaheim and a Rockstar take on theme parks such a Disneyland would be awesome. I'd love to run wild in a place like that, perhaps even do mission for some corrupt theme park owner, even buy one to run missions for Vice City style.

That would be a satisfying alternative to Gant Bridge rampages for me.

Yeah I agree, if they aren't gonna include the other cities they might as well analyse LA now and make Los Santos almost identical, obviously scaled down. It would be cool, but there would be no kids to terrorize, because that would cause all sorts of legal problems. I would like to see a parody of Disneyland in Anaheim and of Six Flags MM in Santa Clarita. I wouldn't mind choosing between rival parks to sabotage the competition, blow up a ride here, loosen a bolt there...

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Originally I was thinking we'd only see Los Santos, but I did some digging around and here's what I found:

San Andreas 13 Sq. Miles

GTA 4 6 Sq. Miles

RDR 26 Sq. Miles

L.A. Noire 8 Sq. Miles

If it quite literally is the biggest game they've made, it must be more than 26 Sq. miles. If Liberty City was just 6, we can easily expect to see more than one city in GTA V. I'd imagine that we would see a very big Los Santos around 5/6 sq. miles (slightly smaller than L.A. Noire and LC, LA Noire was so large that much of it was unvisited and LC included another state, technically anyway, Algonquin), and a slightly smaller SF/LV at perhaps 3/4 Sq. miles each (as they were smaller in SA, and are much smaller in real life, besides, with LV especially, we wouldn't want much more than downtown and the strip, etc)

that means about 11 to 14 Sq. miles of city. If, going by RDR standards, that leaves 11 to 15 Sq. miles of country/desert. Though, I'd imagine we'd see more, as they said, it is bigger than their previous titles. So perhaps 16 to 20 Sq. Miles of country/desert. Therefore, 3:1 ratio, very similar to San Andreas's ratio.

In comparison, Just Cause 2 was 400 Sq. Miles and was only one disc on the 360. I do understand though that GTA is a far more detail heavy game, much more sound files, animations, etc.. However, 400 Sq. miles was achieved on one disc, most of which is country (as this is relatively less data intensive). So it wouldn't be too unrealistic to see 30/35 Sq. miles of much more detailed data on one disc (with two thirds being less data heavy countryside/desert). Perhaps one option for Rockstar would be the optional installation of the radio stations, as they take up considerable data (2 to 3 GB) and, to be honest, they're not essential to the gameplay.

Also, just a bit of personal speculation, but the guy who we assume is the protagonist at the moment, the old white guy. He seems to fit the 'Venturas' bill doesn't he? The dollar sign on the GTA V logo, "the pursuit of the almighty dollar", they all point towards Venturas playing some sort of role. Plus, where does everyone go to lose money?

Just my thoughts.

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